As the old Joni Mitchell song goes, Judd Apatow has looked at life from both sides now. Before tasting the thrill of victory as the producer of hit comedies like Anchorman and Talladega Nights and the director of 2005's The 40 Year-Old Virgin and this summer's Knocked Up he experienced the agony of defeat as the creator of such brilliant-but-cancelled TV series as The Ben Stiller Show, Freaks and Geeks, and Undeclared. Victory, it's safe to say, is a lot more fun. With the latest film from the white-hot Apatow laugh factory, the raunchy high school comedy Superbad, opening Aug. 17, we brought together Apatow (the film's producer), Seth Rogen (its cowriter and costar), and the film's two leads, Jonah Hill and Michael Cera, for a rollicking and very R-rated conversation about the ins and outs of comedy the supergood, the superbad, and the superugly.
In this second of three installments (see Superbad roundtable, part 1, here; come back to EW.com tomorrow for part 3), the guys talk about writing for ''regular people,'' how there's no maturity in comedy, and the unsung beauty of awkwardness. (And, again, be warned: When we say this roundtable chat is R-rated, we mean it.)
ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: Judd, I know you've been a big believer in showing your movies to test audiences and if they don't laugh at something, you throw it out. Some people might wonder if you risk squeezing the idiosyncrasies out that way.
JUDD APATOW: Well, usually as you're about to lock a movie, you throw in 15 jokes that didn't work just for yourself. ''We're about to lock forever put back in that thing everybody hates.''
SETH ROGEN: But if there's something we love, we'll keep it generally. I mean, even the ''Age of Aquarius'' thing in Virgin people didn't like it for the most part.
APATOW: That's not true. People liked it. Well, here's the thing with all testing: The favorite thing is always also the least favorite. Out of 400 people, 100 people will say something is their favorite thing and then like 35 or 40 will say it's their least favorite. On dirty things, on clean things, there's always that split. But that hasn't become an issue that we disagree with the audience. In fact, when those audiences walk out of these tests now, they look exactly like the cast. You couldn't tell. It's like if the band Wilco had 400 members.
ROGEN: Exactly. We're like the Polyphonic Spree.
JONAH HILL: Do you think that's it? Are people finally wanting to see people that they recognize from their lives?
APATOW: Those people always existed. There's more people now. But it's not like suddenly Freaks and Geeks sold 10 million DVDs in the last six months.
But I assume it's easier for you now to sell people on your theory that you don't need recognizable faces in comedy you just need people who are funny.
APATOW: I've always had a simple theory, which is that movies that are genuinely funny never bomb. Then people say, ''What about Office Space?'' And I say, ''It was a huge hit on DVD.''
So TV is different?
APATOW: TV is different because you can be in the wrong time slot and just never get seen.
Was that what happened with Arrested Development?
APATOW: But that kept going on for three years.
MICHAEL CERA: I was surprised it kept getting picked up.
It survived just solely on glowing reviews.
CERA: Yeah, critics. And we won Emmys the first year. But nobody ever was watching and it went three years.
APATOW: But in movies, if something is very funny and people laugh, it never is a money-loser for somebody. So I always say, I don't think people care who's in a movie at all. It may be a marketing challenge. Superbad is a bit of a marketing challenge.
HILL: What about, like, Ace Ventura? I remember when that came out, I knew who Jim Carrey was from In Living Color, but, like, my parents didn't know who he was. No one knew who he was.
ROGEN: I remember I was so psyched for the new ''James Carrey'' movie. [Laughs] People like to be the first guy to discover somebody.
HILL: And then they hate us when we become successful.
ROGEN: I remember when Ali G came on, nothing made me happier than to tell someone who hadn't heard about it to watch it. It's the same with movies. You want to be the guy to tell your friends. Like [the not-yet-released comedy] Foot Fist Way I tell everyone about that, because then people think you're funnier. It reflects well upon you.
HILL: It's like wearing a shirt of a band. People associate you with the coolness of the band.
APATOW: I remember someone once sent me the pilot of South Park. And someone called me to give some advice about how you hire a staff, so I talked to Matt Stone and I said, ''I just want to be the first one to say this to you. This is going to be biggest thing ever. I just want to say this so it's official. Everybody's jumping on the train I want to jump on first. This is going to be crazy, cover of Rolling Stone. Your life is completely destroyed from this point.'' I had nothing to do with any aspect of the show, but my cool factor in my own mind went up.
ROGEN: Maybe people who want to be viewed as really smart and intellectual tell people to go see Babel, but people who want to be funny will tell everyone to go see Office Space. I think that's just how it is. It reflects upon you in a way.
NEXT PAGE: ''When it makes me so uncomfortable I want to turn it off, that's when I know I'm watching something awesome.''